Currency, in general, is a medium for exchange that is based on promises for what that currency is worth. Commonly called "money." Cryptocurrency is not centrally controlled or regulated and their value is based on the supply and demand; there are built-in limits for how much can exist (potentially curbs devaluation), public logs of the transactions (blockchain) and the cryptography algorithm make it difficult to counterfeit. Maybe this old TechQuickie can explain it better. TL:dr an unregulated form of digital money
What is mining?
The most basic way to acquire a cryptocurrency is the same as acquiring money, in exchange for goods or services. The other way to get cryptocurrency is by mining, or solving increasingly difficult math problems in exchange for the cryptocurrency.
What does this have to do with GPU prices going up?
Crypto mining started on CPUs, but it didn't take long for people to realize that GPUs, especially the 'heavy duty' ones intended for gaming, are really good at it. The downside to GPU mining is heat and power consumption, this lead to mining systems designed for the task and eventually ASIC chips designed just for mining. As a cryptocurrency matures the math problems become very difficult, leading to pools of miners that share resources - this has also lead to some malware using infected systems for mining. An older currency like Bitcoin is well into that 'pooled specialty hardware' age, but newer options like Ethereum are aimed at GPUs; this increased demand means lower supply which means higher prices.
When will prices go back to normal?
Probably if or when the cost to mine via GPU exceeds expected returns. There are some specialized cards set to hit the market which may ease the demand on enthusiast GPUs. A word of warning, when this happens the market will be flooded with GPUs that were used for mining. The lower price may seem attractive, but these cards have been used in harsh conditions, 24/7 for who knows how long. Mining cards probably won't run very well/very long or they could work fine. You have to decide if it's worth the risk.
Should I start mining?
That is entirely up to you, but please take some time to educate yourself on the risks and benefits before you decide. Take a look at a profitability estimator to get an idea of what you might expect. These cryptocurrencies can be very, very volatile so don't quit your job expecting to strike it big with mining. Consider the cost of taxes, cooling, hardware, replacement hardware, and power. Mining is hard on hardware, the wear and tear means things like fans, the GPU(s), and other parts may die prematurely. Keeping your hardware cool (about 300W to cool 1000W) can lead to additional costs for hardware and power or reduced output. The cost of electricity may not seem like much, but it can be enough to make or break a mining setup. Take the time to figure out your ROI.
Should I sell my card?
Again, this is entirely up to you. There may be situations where selling a card and upgrading with the money can work out, but there are a lot of factors at play there, so do your research. Check selling sites: eBay, Craigslist, hardwareswap, LetGo, Facebook, and other (similar) selling sites for pricing. If shipping, package it how you bought it: clean, inside an anti-static bag, in a cardboard box with some padding. If meeting someone IRL, be careful, meet in a well-lit public place - some areas have exchange locations at places like police stations. I'd like to take a quick moment to thank Linux_PCMR for some insight, Graphics_Nerd for gathering some links for review, and the kind users that have replied to the number of posts on this subject.
$KMD can often be used to buy into decentralized ICOs launched on our platform at a discounted price.
KMD can also be traded with absolute privacy using Komodo’s Jumblr tool
What is a privacy coin? Privacy coins implement various protocols to create a layer of privacy between blockchain transactions. This can be utilized to prevent blockchain traceability or provide different levels of privacy for data stored on the blockchain.
What is Jumblr? A decentralized cryptocurrency shuffler that allows your transactions to become incognito and protects them from being traced through a time or knapsack attack. It adds a privacy layer to your transactions because after your coins are Jumbled, an analysis of the amounts that went in or times that they came out is futile. This function is unique to Komodo and does not require third parties.
2. Security: a secure and robust consensus mechanism called delayed Proof of Work (dPoW) that protects your funds and our ecosystem. This unique technology uses a notarization process to create a backup of the entire Komodo blockchain onto the Bitcoin blockchain thereby increasing security and resilience. This happens roughly every ten minutes. The backups are then saved (notarized) onto the Bitcoin blockchain because it has the highest hashrate available. So even if Komodo suffered a devastating attack (which is extremely unlikely), the Komodo blockchain would merely revert to the most recently notarized copy of the chain. If Bitcoin loses superiority in terms of hashrate the dPOW mechanism can be switched to another blockchain on demand. Hence, Komodo is the most flexible platform to build on and one of the most secure.
What is hashrate? A proof of work blockchain needs a lot of calculations. Hashrate is the way it is measured. The amount of data hashed in a given time by a machine. It is a unit used to define the amount of calculations made by a machine. When you add all the machines together you have the hashrate for that blockchain (here’s a great chart that illustrates it). It's like a river of transactions and the broader and wider it is, the harder it is to manipulate it.
3. Freedom from middlemen: a decentralized exchange (DEX) called BarterDEX, with a fully working order book, powered by our world-class atomic swap technology. This reduces risk and transaction fees. Komodo’s atomic swaps work between Bitcoin protocol and ERC20 tokens which means we can support over 95% of all the tokens and coins in existence. Our decentralized exchange offers ‘liquidity power-ups’ which mean that you can place more than one buy order with the same funds (i.e. pick your top 5 coins and if any of them drop below 50% of their value you’ll buy it and cancel the other orders at the same time) which means your funds have a greater value! On top of all that, Komodo’s DEX has fast transaction speeds and super low transaction fees (0.15%). You can find live BarterDEX and Komodo Stats here: https://dexstats.info/index.php.
What are atomic swaps? Atomic swaps are a method of trading cryptocurrencies peer-to-peer, directly from one blockchain to another, without the need to trust a third-party. Here is a good article to read that will take you about 11 minutes ‘Atomic Swaps & Etomic Swaps, Explained in Plain English’ written by John Westbrook on Medium.
Why do YOU want an exchange to be decentralized? A centralized exchange is a third party and requires you to trust them with your funds. If they’re hacked you’re at risk of losing your funds. Centralized exchanges also require you to trade between pillars (i.e. BTC or USDT) which can involve higher transaction fees and a greater number of trades than necessary to swap the token you have for the one you want (i.e. DOGE sell to BTC to buy KMD is two trades when all you really want is DOGE to KMD).
4. Independence: decentralized ICO crowdfunding and scalability solutions for blockchain startups. You can think of a blockchain as a motorway and if you build a project on the same blockchain as other projects you will be impacted by how well the other drives behave, or by the motorway introducing tolls, or you could suffer from congestion (i.e. if you’re familiar with how crypto kitties caused ETH transaction fees to greatly increase and transaction speeds to slow down then you’ll understand multiple projects on one blockchain cause a scalability and independence problem ). Komodo offers parallel chains which mean a project or decentralized ICO is given its own chain which uses Komodo’s technology. This also solves the scalability issue because using the motorway analogy we can simply open more lanes for a project with a high amount of congestion. This is possible because of the dPOW notarisation. It allows projects to launch completely independent blockchains. Every independent blockchain created on Komodo Platform is automatically integrated into Komodo’s BarterDEX (DEX) which means they have instant access to liquidity for their token and their community can buy and trade immediately. If you compare this to a centralized exchange where projects are often met with a list of onerous demands and fees to be listed and risk being delisted then you’ll understand how important this is for any project especially smaller teams and decentralized apps (dAPPS).
5. Universal Wallet: the Agama Wallet is a universal secure, multi-coin wallet to store funds on and claim the 5% reward for your $KMD tokens. There is also a paper wallet available if you would prefer a cold storage option for those who want to maximize their security.
New people please read this. [upvote for visibility please]
I am seeing too many new people come and and getting confused. Litecoin wiki isn't the greatest when it comes to summing up things so I will try to do things as best as I can. I will attempt to explain from what I have learned and answer some questions. Hopefully people smarter than me will also chime in. I will keep this post updated as much as I can. Preface Litecoin is a type to electronic currency. It is just like Bitcoin but it there are differences. Difference explained here. If you are starting to mine now chances are that you have missed the Bitcoin mining train. If you really want your time and processing power to not go to waste you should mine LTC because the access to BTC from there is much easier. Mining. What is it? Let's get this straight. When making any financial commitment to this be prepared to do it with "throw away" money. Mining is all about the hashrate and is measured in KH/s (KiloHash/sec). Unlike the powerful ASICs (Application Specific Integrated Circuit) that are used to mine bitcoins using hashrates in the GH/s and even TH/s, litecoin mining has only been able to achieve at the very best MH/s. I think the highest I've seen is 130 MH/s so far. Which leads us to our next section. Mining Hardware While CPU mining is still a thing it is not as powerful as GPU mining. Your laptop might be able to get 1 a month. However, I encourage you to consult this list first. List of hardware comparison You will find the highest of processors can maybe pull 100 KH/s and if we put this into a litecoin mining calculator it doesn't give us much. Another reason why you don't want to mine with your CPU is pretty simple. You are going to destroy it. So this leaves us with GPUs. Over the past few months (and years) the HD 7950 has been the favourite because it drains less power and has a pretty good hashrate. But recently the introduction of the R9 290 (not the x) has changed the game a bit. People are getting 850 KH/s - 900 KH/s with that card. It's crazy. Should I mine? Honestly given the current difficulty you can make a solid rig for about $1100 with a hashrate of 1700 KH/s which would give you your investment back in about a month and a half. I am sure people out there can create something for much cheaper. Here is a good example of a setup as suggested by dystopiats PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.
Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-11-29 00:52 EST-0500
Estimated Hashrate (with GPU overclocking) : 1900 KH/s Hardware Fundamentals CPU - Do you need a powerful CPU? No but make sure it is a decent one. AMD CPUs are cheap to buy right now with tons of power. Feel free to use a Sempron or Celeron depending on what Motherboard you go with. RAM - Try to get at least 4 GB so as to not run into any trouble. Memory is cheap these days. I am saying 4 GB only because of Windoze. If you are plan to run this on Linux you can even get away with less memory. HDD Any good ol 7200 RPM hard drive will do. Make sure it is appropriate. No point in buying a 1TB hard drive. Since, this is a newbie's guide I assumed most won't know how to run linux, but incase you do you can get a USB flash drive and run linux from it thus removing the need for hard drive all toghether. (thanks dystopiats) GPU - Consult the list of hardware of hardware I posted above. Make sure you consider the KH/s/W ratio. To me the 290 is the best option but you can skimp down to 7950 if you like. PSU - THIS IS BLOODY IMPORTANT. Most modern GPUs are power hungry so please make sure you are well within the limits of your power consumption. MOTHERBOARD - Ok, so a pretty popular board right now is Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD3 and the ASRock 970 Extreme4. Some people are even going for Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5 and even the mighty Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD7 because it has more PCI-E slots. 6 to be exact. However you may not need that much. With risers you can get more shoved into less. PCI-E RISERS - These are called risers. They come in x16 to x16 and x1 to x16 connections. Here is the general rule of thumb. This is very important. Always get a POWERED riser otherwise you will burn a hole in your MoBo. A powered rise as a molex connector so that additional power from PSU can be supplied. When it comes to hardware I've provided the most basic knowledge you need. Also, take a look at cryptobader's website. This is very helpful. Please visit the mining section of Litecoin Forums and the litecoinmining subreddit for more indepth info. Mining Software Now that you have assembled your hardware now you need to get into a pool. But before you do that you need a mining software. There are many different ones but the one that is most popular is cgminer. Download it and make sure you read the README. It is a very robust piece of software. Please read this if you want to know more. (thanks BalzOnYer4Head) Mining Pools Now that your hardware and software is ready. I know nothing about solo mining other than the fact that you have to be very lucky and respectable amount of hashing power to decrypt a block. So it is better to join pools. I have been pool hopping for a bit and really liked give-me-coin previously known to the community as give-me-ltc. They have a nice mobile app and 0% pool fees. This is really a personal preference. Take a look at this list and try some yourself. How do I connect to a pool? Most pools will give you a tutorial on how to but the basics are as follows:
Signup for a pool
Create a worker for your account. Usually one worker per rig (Yes people have multiple rigs) is generally a good idea.
Create a .run file. Open up notepad and type cgminer.exe -o (address_to_the_miningpool:port_number) -u (yourusername.workername) -p (your_worker_password_if_you_made_one). Then File>Save As>runcgminer.run (Make sure the drop down is set to "All Files" and .txt document.) and save in the same folder as cgminer. That's it.
Double click on runcgminer.run (or whatever you named it) and have fun mining.
Mining Profitability This game is not easy. If it was, practically everyone would be doing it. This is strictly a numbers game and there are calculations available that can help you determine your risk on your investments. 4 variables you need to consider when you are starting to mine: Hardware cost: The cost of your physical hardware to run this whole operation. Power: Measured in $/KwH is also known as the operating cost. Difficulty rate: To put it in layman's terms the increase in difficulty is inversely proportional to amount of coin you can mine. The harder the difficulty the harder it is to mine coin. Right now difficulty is rising at about 18% per 3 days. This can and will change since all you miners are soon going to jump on the band wagon. Your sanity: I am not going to tell you to keep calm and chive on because quiet frankly that is stupid. What I will tell you not to get too carried away. You will pull you hair out. Seriously. Next thing you will need is a simple tool. A mining profitability calculator. I have two favourite ones. coinwarz I like this one cause it is simple. The fields are self explanatory. Try it. bitcoinwisdom I like this one because it is a more real life scenario calculator and more complicated one (not really). It also takes increasing difficulty into account. Please note: This is the absolute basic info you need. If you have more questions feel free to ask and or google it! More Below.
Any mining profitability calculator that lets you see past returns starting from specific past dates?
Most profitability calculators either assume current difficulty stays the same (we all know it doesn't) or estimates difficulty increase. What I want is a calculator that let's me set the start date as a date in the past, and shows me actual would-have-been returns based on actual difficulty from then till now? Why? Because I know an s9 would have been "profitable" 6, 12, 18 months ago, but much of that profit would have been from BTC price increase, and simply buying bitcoin 6-18 months ago would have been a great investment too. I want to compare profitability of mining and hodling vs same budget on buying coin and hodling, from various points in time. Alternatively, if no such web calc exists, if the math isn't too complicated I guess I could make one in spreadsheet form.
I just bought my first ASIC's, did I make a bad investment
I bought 2 brand New s9i's with psu's For 1600$ And I also Will build a sound Box And I need a router that supports my mobile broadband, this Will prob. Cost another 200$. So the calculating speed is going to be avarage 28TH. How long Will it take to get my money Back when I don't have any electricity Costs. Im just bit concerned because my friend told me that according to BitcoinWisdom site my profits Will cut half every month And that I Will only be making the amount what Bitcoin profitability calc. For the first month. So on few months after mining im making just a fraction of the profit And never going to be able to get the ROI? Can somebody help me and tell me a simple answer how this difficulty affects my New investment.
bit_by_bit's mining-cost analysis is wrong - here's mine
bit_by_bit publishes a daily mining-cost-per-coin watch. Though his work is thorough and commendable, it is unfortunately incorrect, and his conclusions naive. I'm sure he has misled people on this board, so I'm here to set the record straight. Roughly using bit_by_bit's assumptions:
difficulty increase is (probably) impossible to predict
I'm 100% sure your miner would not arrive and be switched on today
Given those two huge, highly variable (and unpredictable) factors, trying to work out a cost-per-coin is ... more-or-less impossible. It's simply enough to assume that mining is extremely unprofitable at the moment and (probably) a very poor investment. Here are some examples of variability:
Cointerra TerraMiner IV
cost per coin
0% difficulty increase
20% difficulty increase
15% difficulty, but starting at 30bn difficulty
How are these numbers so different from bit_by_bits?
His calculations do not factor in an exponential difficulty increase. Instead, he says (in his maths) : "if the bitcoin network were composed of the miners here, and no extra miners are added/removed (i.e. difficulty remains the same) what would those miners (on average) achieve as a cost per coin over six months."
The problem with these numbers is
The percentage of miners he uses to compose the network is unknowable, and as you see above, miner performance varies greatly. I'm quite sure that huge operations custom manufacture their machines and never sell them. Their performance is unknown. (an unknowable unknown)
The makeup of the mining network in the future is unknowable, and difficulty will undoubtedly increase, but we can't know by how much. It has previously plateaued. Will it do the same? nobody knows.
They assume the very latest miners, shipped immediately. Historically, new miners are not shipped on time. It's been suggested that the manufacturers keep them and do highly profitable day-zero mining with them.
Also, to suggest that it is possible to predict market movements (and depth) is naive as it asserts that demand is constant, and that supply is the major, or key, factor. This is highly unlikely to be the case.
Let's talk about mining's effect on bitcoin price or, first should we talk about the effect of the price of bitcoin on the mining industry?
The two are intimately linked chicken-and-egg in a feedback loop. For a manufacturer to decide to make a rig, they need to design chips, get industry contacts, produce things (in china), make sure they work, then ship. They also need to get orders and decide if they are able to get the whole project in time for market. These projects are multi-month/year, and I've heard success is largely decided by who you know in china (china's pretty busy already). There is some kind of lag. Investors also pre-order, and must take a wild guess at future conditions with no guarantee whatsoever. At times like now, where mining is so unprofitable, which miners are actually selling coins (at a loss)? Large operations have large overheads, but to sell now, when the price might rise by 10x again would be idiotic. So, really this "supply" aspect of the supply-demand equation is very difficult to get a decent hold on, though I would love somebody to attempt it as a PHD. The blockchain should provide some answers. The other side of it (what miners will be produced) is also difficult to know. It could be that right now (with an unprofitable industry, and miners actually being quite close to desktop PC chip-size - i.e. as fast as humans can make them) no miners are in the pipe-line. This could (in crazy theory) lead to a zero difficulty increase for the lucky new owners of the above rigs. In that case, bit_by_bit's numbers would be spot on. Unfortunately, it's absolutely unknowable.
So... why do people buy miners now?
Quite simply, getting your head around an exponential anything is hard. The exponential difficulty increase is a motherfucker. But it's good for bitcoin (it protects our network from meddlers). Also, you could gamble that mining difficulty has to slow down... surely...
In my experience, looking at price charts is far more informative about future market movements. But, whilst I've got the microphone, I would remind newbies not to trade their coins.
$0.15 (varies quite a bit from country-to country, like 0.7 canada to 0.2 UK?)
price per BTC
I got these numbers off bit_by_bit. I don't care about the details. My argument is that it's not an answerable question. Result:
2252/600 = 3.75 BTC
7446/3.75 = $1985
Please, if I've made a mistake, let me know and I'll send bit_by_bit some flowers.
"Why are you just posting stuff directly against another user: that's not cool"
Well, it's whatever motivates you eh? I just go wound up by our discussions. But, I'm quite sure there are people on this board who don't know this stuff, so ... it's probably beneficial. Have fun EDIT: Ok, so I genuinely thought that I had made a fact-based post. Er, I added a few comments that I thought were funny, but I guess that wasn't a great idea. I removed one of my comments myself, but it's true that the moderators were in touch..... And - to bit_by_bit, I am sorry, because some of the things I said were above and beyond "spirited discussion". I absolutely agree that polite conduct is the way forward, and my initial "hang on a minute" reply to him was nice. But, I do have to admit that this subject has wound me up a fair amount. I genuinely believe that he's made a quite serious mistake - but I am happy to be proved wrong. Right now - I just want to get to the bottom of this. More Edit:
I am a miner
I didn't want to add this before, because I'm sure it (incorrectly) gives my argument more weight. But I need you to understand that bitcoin difficulty is a total motherfucker. I pre-ordered a BFL single for 11BTC in May 2013. The difficulty was about 4 million, and I worked out I'd make 30BTC/day at those conditions. It arrived at around 30 million difficulty, and I think now we're 18 billion. I've made about 0.7 BTC mining, and It's on the limit of believability that I'll make 1BTC before I throw it in the bin. I have a suspicion that it will be useful in the future for some altcoin/blockchain like thing. Also, I got free heating (which was the whole reason I discovered bitcoin in the first place!) Horrific loss. I think it makes about $1 more than it costs in electricity to run (at current price......) This whole post is not a "bitter miner" but somebody who has experienced bitcoin's exponential difficulty First Hand. Honestly, it is unbelievable. I genuinely think that the guy that does the profitability calculator deliberately does not explain what the 'profitability decline per year' is ... because he knows it will adversely harm bitcoin and the manufacture of miners. Even More EDIT:
Am I sure I've got the difficulty increase thing right?
So, I've made a spreadsheet thing to see if the 0.0022 difficulty thing is right. It is. All this table tells you is that in order to calculate 15% difficulty increase, you need to use a number LIKE 0.0022 in the 'profitability decline per year' box, and not 0.98 (which bit_by_bit calculated). I've sanity checked my numbers against the 'profitability calculator' and they don't quite line up, but they're close enough. The difficulty is not the same either, but it's in the same region. I don't know why. Also, the months aren't exact fortnights, so they don't line up. These are details. This proves my above workings to my satisfaction.
what is this horrible data?
It shows how much BTC your miner earns each 2 weeks (average difficulty change period). The last 2 rows (calc:) are from the profitability calculator website (and so are right). My attempt is on the left. Fortnight 13 is 6 months. Oh, this graph uses 14.07% difficulty.
BTC earned accumulated
calculator says BTC
2 bold numbers. 1 is approximately the 3.75 coins that gives you $1900 / coin whatever. 2 is the "profitability decline per year" as a tiny number. The pro tool comes up with 0.01095125 and I got 0.02257 but I don't care - it's close enough. My whole point is that these numbers are totally unworkably all over the place. You can't calculate them meaningfully.
I CANNOT BELIEVE the amount of effort that I have had to go to in order to show you that you made a minor mistake. (at time of writing you still deny it). There is no doubt in my mind now that I was right in the first place. Your calculations do not include a significant difficulty increase. I wish you well.
Question - Formula for bitcoin mining profitability that factors increasing difficulty over time
Hi guys, I'm making some basic trackers in Google Sheets for my cloud mining earnings. A profitability calc that factors in cloud mining fees and, ideally - difficulty increases. My question is what is this formula, and what data does it need - to modify Bitcoin produced over the next 12 months assuming that the difficulty steadily increases at a rate comparable to the past 12 months (~478% / ~1.3% daily). What is the formula that allows for a sliding scale over time? Say I was trying to figure out where 7.73TH/s would get me at: D1 W1 M1 M2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Y1 Any help is much appreciated, cheers.
I made an upgraded calculator for Hashflare, with reinvestments and difficulty increase!
Final EDIT: I have deactivated the links, too many people asking to edit. I recommend to everyone: buy Bitcoin, ETH or altcoins and hold them. As for me, I'm all in on RaiBlocks -> /RaiBlocks EDIT 1: Changed to consider an optional BTC price increase EDIT 2: Changed to consider mining fees, thanks for the suggestions EDIT 3: Optimize number of days using Goal Seek EDIT 4: Fixed bug in BTC price increase ( thanks madmax_br5 ) - you will now see bigger profits in the chart as it is using the projected increased value. EDIT 5: Added comparison with buying BTC now and selling later. 3-4x more in my case. EDIT 6: Overhaul after WandringAnteater 's suggestions. He also gave a more in depth explanation of the inputs and outputs here EDIT 7: Changed to reinvest from the payout and not balance; fallback to balance if payout < 0.01 TH/s equivalent. Thanks to u/erikkubica for reporting the bug. I saw many calculators around the sub (thanks for those by the way!), but they didn't consider the increases in difficulty, making for huge profits in the end. This one considers a constant increase in difficulty, compounded (specify the amount and period of increase). Reinvestment is also considered, you can specify the percentage and how long you wish to reinvest. There are still many things that are unpredictable, but this at least can give us a more conservative view on potential profits (no longer 10x, but about 3x in my case - at current BTC price). Maybe someone smarter than me can take this calculator and create automatic optimization on the reinvestment percentage and time. As of now you have to insert your values and wait about 5 seconds to re-calc. Any criticism is appreciated!
What is the max supply of bitcoin private? There are like 16m bitcoin and 3m zcl in circulation.. So that's 2m bctp left to mine if it has 21m max supply right? I don't see the fees being able to cover the cost of mining the blocks in only a few years... So what's happening with mining and max supply and how will the chain continue to be profitable once the last btcp is mined. Edit the whitepaper says it will have 20.4m of 21m mined... So it will be the least profitable coin to mine in the history of coins? Edit 2. Entering some basic information into a zec Calc shows that for a 1080ti. Bctp would be required to be worth over $100,000 to make only 2.70$ a day based on the difficulty that zec has. The bctp is going to stall out in hashpower on release no question.
Looking at WhatToMine I guess it makes sense. https://whattomine.com/coins/161-sc-blake-2b?utf8=%E2%9C%93&hr=815.0&p=1200.0&fee=3.0&cost=0.13&hcost=1300.0&commit=Calculate Power cost per month / coins generated per month on an A3 makes the intrinsic value about .0022 USD. Anyone mining this on ASICs probably sees anything over .0022 as profit so they sell. I’ve bought and I hold. I’ll probably buy more if this dip continues. But I won’t be surprised if my held position goes down significantly more. At some point the current generation of ASICs will stop being profitable (when more of the same generation of ASICs come online or as sellers continue to book profits). Then the price should find some intrinsic support. ...until the next generation. Time. It will take time is all. Same calc for a bitcoin ASIC shows intrinsic value of around 9k. So at the very least the coin is a store of the value of the power cost to generate it. I think...
Blockchain to fix horribly broken e-mail system like it is today?
E-mail as it is, is horribly broken. Horrendously broken. It wasn't that many years ago that you could be assured your e-mail reaches whoever you were mailing to. Today it is a mere suggestion, that perhaps this should be delivered to this person, at least for any automated e-mail. This seems to be creeping to manual, organic email as well. Hell, we are seeing even internal e-mails being flagged by spamassassin as spam, organic, human written conversations! In that instance, the spamassassin is also maintained by one of the largest hosting providers in the world... Hotmail/MS services has been for years (atleast about 4 years now!) been silently dropping email, not all, but some. There's a bit of relief lately, as they have started to favor a bit more marking as spam, rather than silently dropping. I know, most email users don't see this problem, but those who use email a lot to do their work, and those who need to send automated emails (say, welcome e-mails for a service) this is a big problem. (Disclaimer, for us, our niche of hosting probably causes flagging as well. Our site is blocked by many corporate firewalls for example) Blockchain to the rescue? This is an idea i've been toying around with a few years. What if any single e-mail would cost a faction of a cent, and who receives the e-mail, gets paid for it? Now that would solve a lot of problems. I realize there has been some half assed attempts on blockchain based e-mail, but they are about replacing email (never going to happen). Using blockchain to enhance the current experience, with least minimal friction should be the goal, not re-inventing the wheel. Imagine a say 0.01 cent (0.0001 USD) cost per e-mail. This price would not be cost prohibitive even for free e-mail service providers (Ad revenue etc. should exceed this value), never mind any legit e-mail users. Especially considering you get paid for receiving. So all legit e-mail services would work rather well regardless of the cost. (never mind free email service could profit from this) Spam however? To send 1 million emails you would need to pay 100$. How many spammers would continue doing so? At least it makes things much harder, not so easy to use a botnet to send your email when you need to include your private key(s) to the botnet, or make some kind of private key management system, makes more complicated. Small business newsletters? Say you need to send 100k e-mails to legit customers, 10$ is nothing. To human time crafting that newsletter is order (possibly orders) of magnitude greater than that. Price would also fluctuate as per the market. The most difficult thing would probably be setting the self balancing mechanisms to keep per mail cost sensible. As such, the biggest hurdle in this might not be technical at all. Technically, how could this work? Sender sends a TX for e-mail they are sending for recipient. This TX contains message with mail ID, and a segment which can be used with the email contents to unlock the private key for the payment. This way it is verified that recipient mail servers receives and reads the email. Once the recipient server has calculated the private key, they can either TX the received sum to their wallet, or this needs to be formatted so that once the sender has sent it, they cannot recover the private key and double spend (technical hurdle A. For someone who knows their stuff unlikely to be an major hurdle) Step by step repeat: * Sender checks if recipient has "MailCoin" capability * Sender sends TX to recipient * Sender sends the email to recipient * Recipient notices on mail header (say x-mailcoin-tx: TXID_HERE) that this is a "mailcoin" mail * Recipient checks TX if it has been received * Recipient puts the mail on delivery queue, antispam is instructed of heavy negative score (MTA admin configurable) * Recipient claims the value of the TX (this is the hurdle A). Recipient can only claim the TX value in case they have received the full e-mail. (Question, can this step be pushed even further down the delivery chain, but still remain MTA only level without mail client support?). Most likely solution is that the header contains the encrypted private key, and chain TX contains the key to decrypt that private key to claim the coins, or vice-versa? Once recipient has the email & payment, they simply mark on their Antispam a automatic lower score and deliver it normally. E-mail server side we have several components:
Recipient server needs component to check for TXs
Sender server needs component to send a TX, and check if the recipient has the capability
Recipient server OR dns zone has indicator the recipient can utilize "MailCoins" (DNS IN TXT field most likely, ie. mailcoin.domain.com. IN TXT publicaddress)
Most typical scenario would be the Recipient server works as outgoing as well, with single wallet. So depending on your mail volume, do you send or receive more on that wallet you might never need to worry about the coins (except for value going skyhigh and having like 10k $ worth of "MailCoins"). So perhaps additional components on per use case are needed, or more likely rudimentary scripting capability (ie. "MailCoin" daemon api) to keep the balances in check. Technical hurdle B: This needs to be super super simple to setup. Or sufficient financial incentive. One would need to develop standard components & configs for exim, postfix, and other MTAs. Infact, make it autogenerate wallet ID etc. and easy to replace or import private keys etc. to put in coins for sending if you need to. Privacy: On the blockchain you would not see the e-mail contents, only that e-mail likely took place (TX with mail UUID) to recipient. If sender can be deciphered it depends on them if it can be traced who they were. Automatic mixers? :) Recipient can also keep cycling the receive addresses to keep things private if they want to. The biggest problem i see here, is that if an attacker can deduce the sender and/or recipient, it might to lead to some issues out of the scope of technical solutions. If attacker could read the emails, they would already have accomplished MitM and could just grab all e-mails. Default implementation should be so, that from recipient address outsider cannot deduce the recipient server nor hostname. Also, if attacker gains access to your mail with full headers, they could see the TXs in blockchain. MTA might need to scrub mailcoin related headers (yuck, scrubbing headers ....) for paranoid users, but most likely solution is that recipient retransmits those mailcoins as soon as they got the private key for the balance. Blockchain: Blocks needs to be done every 10seconds or so, it needs to be fast. Preferrably even every 5 seconds, as not to cause any undue delay. Then again, if your application is reliant on receiving email within seconds, one should consider another means for communicating. Imho, email should be considered a little bit like snail mail, but on internet pace: Couple minutes delay is just OK. Block size given the e-mail volume needs to be fairly large as well, considering the time between blocks. This is technical hurdle C: Hosting the full blockchain. I can easily foresee that this would grow to be terabytes in size. However, any large email operator would have vested interest in ensuring smooth operation of the blockchain, and for them, running a full node would have neglible cost. (Technical hurdle C) Single email sent using the system could easily have TX contents of 100 bytes + TX headers + block headers etc. Say 100 bytes, and 100 million emails per day: 9.31GiB per day, 3 399GiB per year, 5 years later: 16.60 TiB just for the mail TXs. Some estimate there is 200+ billion emails per day, but we all know large portion of this is spam. But even at 50 billion emails a day, 100 bytes per mail TX would add to 4.55TiB per day! So optimizing the blockchain size is obviously going to be important. The volume will be obviously much smaller as semi-spam (those daily half opt-in spamvertising from companies you know) will be lower as well. So probs 100+ billion emails per day at 100% adoption. Blockchain should then be compressed, the whole block. Algorithm probably should favor speed over compression rate, and should be task specifically optimized (needs a simple reference release, where you can just stream the block contents into it and get output as compressed or uncompressed). The more compression there is, the more full nodes will be hosted by smaller operators :) For large e-mail server clusters there should be central store for the blockchain, but this can be accessed on the system administratoconfig level already. The MTA components will just remotely talk to single full node daemon (so not really different from many implementations in existence right now), instead of each one running locally a full node. At today's cheapest hosting rates 16.60TiB is roughly around 85-100€ a month. Purchase cost per 8TB drive is around 230€ mark right now, externals are cheaper. Not an issue for any even semi serious mail provider. Not even issue for datahoarder individuals. However at 100 billion mails per day: 9.09TiB per day added, which is prohibitively large! We should be targeting something like 20bytes per mail final storage spent, or even less. If it looks like it is going to grow really large, full node needs to have configurable multiple storages, so they can store parts of the blockchain on multiple different devices (ie. individual might choose to have it on 4 different external drives). Filesystem side optimizations are needed as well, but these are fairly simple, just split into multiple subdirectories by the 10 thousand blocks or so, ie. 1 for blocks 1-10k, 2 for blocks 10 001 to 20k etc. Filesystems get exponentially slower the more files there is per directory. 10k might start to show slowing down, but is not significant yet. Nodes could also implement secondary compression (compress multiple blocks together), if the blockchain starts to become stupid large. If it starts to become impossible to maintain, we could possibly implement a scrubbing methodology, where very old blocks get the TX contents wiped as they are not necessary anymore. Should not be an issue Blocks with 10second target generated per annum: 3 153 600 Mails per 10second: 115 740 e-mails per 10second block. Final compressed size (say 20 bytes per mail): 2.20MiB + headers etc. per block Let's start small and allow linear growth to this, say 0.1% per day (36.5% annual) and start from 20k / 512KiB. After 3 years: 41.9k / 1072.64KiB per block, After 10 years: 93k / 2380.8KiB. (2027 we should have HDDs in the size of 30TB and daily max size for chain growth is 19.61TiB) On the positive side every problem is an opportunity in disguise. If the blockchain is large, once again botnets will have a hard hard time to spamming, they can't host the full blockchain on infected machines. They will need to develop centralized mechanisms on this regard as well. One method i can see is by having TOR client built in, and via .onion domain to anonymize, but this is two way street, security researchers could exploit this (see above about the private keys) as well. Even without botnets, spammers will need to dedicate significant resources to host the full blockchain. On the flip side, if spammer has also mining operation on the same local area network, they have both the income for mailcoins + full blockchain, and could leverage economies of scale, but this too would increase cost. And after all: This is all about increasing cost for spamming, while having the price in vicinity where real e-mail users, real businesses it is not a significant impact, or may even be an income source Client side Zero, Nada changes. No changes to outlook, thunderbird etc. Everything works under the hood at the MTA level. Very easy adoption for the end user. Everything is in the backend, server side. Economics for users Cost of operation has above been shown to increase wildly for spammers. But how about normal use cases? Joe Average: They receive e-mail a lot more than they send, all kinds of order confirmations, invoices, newsletters and other automated e-mail. They will actually earn (however tiny amounts) from using this system. So for the masses, this is a good thing, they will see the earning potentials! which brings us to .... New business opportunities! I could foresee a business setting up spam traps, the more e-mail you receive the more you earn! So it pays to get your receiver into spam lists. You don't ever need to read these, just confirm receive of them. All of sudden we could see even greater numbers of invalid e-mail addresses in spam lists, making spamming ever more expensive! Free email services might proof to be extremely profitable, to the point of potential revenue sharing with Joe Averages (and above spamtraps). Because free email is mostly joe averages, they will have greater influx than outgoing. On the caveat, free email needs to have limits, but due to the low cost and potential of earnings, they could implement "mail credits" system, base is like 20 emails a day, but each received email could increase this credit limit. As such, it makes actually sense for free email services to implement this at the very least on the receiving side. Business mass emailings. A business which has 100k valid e-mails on their database will not have a problem with paying few dozen bucks to have their mass mailing delivered. BUT they will make extra sure the content is good and targeted, something the recipient wants to receive. These will be the biggest spenders on email, apart from spammers. ISPs, hell they get paid to provide e-mail. And they are on the same spot as free email service providers, they stand to earn more than spend! Blockchain economics This is where things might get interesting, there is so much potential. However, there are several things definitively should not be done:
Initial Coin Offerings
Non-consensus chain (ie. whatever devs say, goes!), always has to be consensus
Infinite & preferential supply
1 & 2 are easy, just do not mine outside of testnet prior to launch. (If devs get paid by companies, there is conflict of interest as well, but let's not get into that right now) 3: Miners and/or full node maintainers decide what goes on. Probably miners like bitcoin is supposed to. 4: Infinite & preferential supply: No after the launch "contracts" etc. to give coins to preferential parties, it should remain as on the launch unless majority consensus says there will be a change. Proof of stake is gray area imho, but then again also proof of work is the rich gets richer. Mining: Storage requirement is a blessing in disguise, the massive storages required for this to function means that there will be no central hardware developer who sells all the shovels, without significant other markets. Ie. WD, Seagate, Toshiba the main players. This means algo needs to be based on the full blockchain being hosted. The hashing needs to be so that GPUs are the king most likely, since almost anything good for CPUs is also doable in GPUs. Eventually someone will likely come with ASIC alternative, but due to masses of data it WILL require high bandwidth, high memory. Nothing like bitcoin currently, where low bandwidth, no memory requirement for the ASIC. There needs to be some expensive commodity components in there (RAM, Storage), and as such GPUs are the most likely candidate, and the bottleneck will not likely be computation, but I/O bandwidth. Quickly thinking, previous block could include number of blocks to be included on the next for verification, in a highly compressible format. Let's say difficulty is number of blocks to be hashed, or from difficulty you can calculate number of blocks to be included. Previous blocks miner just chooses on random blocks to be included on the next one. Listing 10 series of blocks to be included, which can include series instructions. It could request block #5729375+100, or #357492+500 stepping 5 (every 5th block). Hell the random generator could use last block as seed for the next one to make it deterministic YET random as the emails and TXs change. (WTF, Did i just solve how the algo needs to work?!?) Only blocks which would differentiate is the first few, and obviously Genesis, for which an "empty" block would be what is to be hashed. Hashing algo could be SHA256 because of the high requirement of streaming data, and most ASIC miners lacking in bandwidth (infact, it could be made compatible with bitcoin, but only those ASICS with higher I/O bandwidth than storage/ram I/O bandwidth is could actually boost the perf) Different hashable list operations could be (on the block list what to be hashed on the next one): * Single block * Block # + number of blocks * Block # + (number of blocks with stepping) * Block # + number of blocks chosen by random using each hashed block as the seed for choosing next one (makes prefetch, preread, caching not work efficiently) * Number of previous blocks mined (ie. 50 last blocks) * Above but with stepping operator * Above but with choose random next X blocks, with variations based on the last hashed, sum of the hashed * All random pickers would have operation modes for the seed to be used: From hashed sum, the whole block, block contents, block header These modes would ensure the blocks are there and makes it a lot dependable on variable factors, RAM speed, I/O seek time, I/O bandwidth. This way we have proof that the miner has access to those blocks in efficient manner and the full blockchain is stored there, even if it is not practically retrievable from him / her over the internet for others to obtain a copy. HOWEVER, due to the data volumes, i think it is given they have fast access, but a miner would probably prefer not to share their blockchain contents to have bandwidth free for their mining, as the deadlines are tight. It could be built into the full node spec that they do not accept new blocks from sources which are not ready to supply any given block, and perhaps even periodic test of this. However, this would be unenforceable if people start running custom coded nodes which disables this, as it is not part of the blockchain calculation. It is not miner's benefit to "waste" precious bandwidth to serve others the vast blockchain, meanwhile it is end users benefit those running full nodes without mining to get them fast. So an equilibrium might be reached, if miners start loosing out because other miners will not share their blocks, they will start offering them, even if prioritized. At 2MiB blocks, 10 second deadline, a miner would preferentially want the new block within 500ms, which would be barely sufficient time for a round trip across the globe. 500ms for 2MiB is 4MiB/s transfer rate inbound, and when block found you want it out even faster, say 250ms you'll need 8MiB/s burst which very very few have at a home. At more usual 1MiB/s it would take 2secs to submit your new block. On the other hand, if you found the block, you'd have immediate access to begin calcing the next one. Block verification needs to be fast, and as such the above difficulty setting alone is not sufficient, there needs to be nonce. Just picking the right block is not guarantee there will be match, so traditional !???? nonce needs to be set as well most likely. As such, a lot of maths needs to be done to ensure this algorithm does not have dead ends, yet ensures certain blocks needs to be read as full and stored fully by the miners, just plain hashes of the blocks is not sufficient. Perhaps it should be block data + nonce, then all the blocks hashes (with nonce, or pre-chosen salt) and to be generated block combined hash with nonce needs to have certain number of zeroes. Needs testing and maths :) So there are many ways to accomplish proof of storage, we'd need just to figure out the which is the best. Sidenote, this same algo could potentially be used with different settings for immutable, forever storage of data. Since there is no continuing cost to store data, TX Fee for every message (data) byte should be very high in such a coin. Supply. Needs to be predictable and easy to understand. It would be preferential the standard mailing out is always 1x MailCoin, albeit coin itself should be practically infinitively divisable, and as such supply needs to be in the trillions eventually. But these things get complicated really fast, so we need to set a schedule. Current email use is very large, so we should have something in the same magnitude. 8640 blocks per day - so maybe 10 000 coins per block == 86 400 000 new coins per day == 31 536 000 000 new coins per year, halving every 2 years. First halving: 63 072 000 000, Second halving: 94 608 000 000, Third (6 years): 110 376 000 000, but only halving 4 or 5 times to keep some new supply for ever increasing adoption and lost coins. Got all the way here? :D Thanks for reading up. Let me know what you think, and let's start a discussion on the feasibility of such a system! I cannot develop this myself, but i would definitively back an effort up in the ways i can if anyone attempts to do something like this :) And i know i got probably many of the details incorrect The main point of the methods described above is ease of adoption. Without adoption any system is worthless, and with email, you just cannot replace it like that (see the attempts trying to replace IPv4 with IPv6 ...), but you can enhance it. adoption is very critical in communications systems. (No one would have a phone if no one else had a phone) Addendum 1: Forgot to add about pricing and markets, read comment here Addendun 2:Bad actors and voting
I understand that BC mining isn't exactly lucrative when done on a small scale, but I do have a more practical question. It seems that one of the biggest costs is A/C. Well I live in Northern Canada, and it sometimes gets to be -50 here in the winter. Would it be reasonable that profit, or ROI could be greatly increased by running a 6 month operation, by opening a window? edit: forgot to mention that we pay about 100-150 in heating per month; so I was thinking of a two birds one stone. The idea would be to invest maybe 2-5k in equipment, and even if I don't have to heat and don't mine a single BC, I would be saving about 800 a year in electricity due to no longer needing to heat. edit2: here's the calcs I came up with for this product https://www.amazon.ca/AntMiner-T9-11-5TH-0-126W-Bitcoin/dp/B01NCX6ZPO/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1485137997&sr=8-7&keywords=antminer http://www.coinwarz.com/calculators/bitcoin-mining-calculato?h=11500.00&p=1450.00&pc=0.09&pf=0.00&d=392963262344.37000000&r=12.50000000&er=927.60000000&hc=0.00 Total estimated profit : $1,348.33 USD: or about 1.8 years; however, add the about 800 CAD I spend on heating my place, this becomes about 1900 USD, or about 1.4 years (estimated). That'd be like buying a stock with a 75% dividend yield. Any thoughts? edit 3: forgot that I could only reasonably run this for 6-8 months out of the year, so approximately a 2 year ROI. Still, that's pretty damn good if you ask me, no?
A few days ago i commented on a Quark clone and downloaded the client - link/info inside Merge Mine candidate.
---UPDATE---- this is a great discussion this is what democracy is about ! - if only our nations where run like this ! : D - in such an open manner ! so an update TL;DR of the discussion:
People for the "core group" have made allegation that I'm the Dev - (i can't code C++)
Mining will extend in its primary reward 20 units for 4 years guys - so if this is a conspiracy its going to be a highly valued one
So what i'm saying is if people are contesting that this transparent open start is a conspiracy, you by default must be valuing it at near Bitcoin valuation?
Shake (Adam) i have been able to contact over Twitter and he thinks the Block time is relevant to proportional hash power but not an inhibitor of the Merge so it can be done. (i've ask him to come and throw a comment in)
Further clarification from Max would be beautiful.
Someone said the mimiccoin incarnation presently is "Cute" - i agree !
Coinmama said i misquoted her from an email - sorry if i did i'll go back and have a re-read I often just phrase those long emails. sorry if i misrepresented you , but in the same sense thanks for the inspiration to bring this to Reddit ASAP as the idea looked viable !
oh if you are a Quark investor and you think this is a great solution and would potentially mine it yourself give us an up vote - I know i said i wouldn't look at the Votes but i think the guys at Head office might have cut the budget on the "vote manipulation tool" - so give it a shot anyhow ! after all times are tough ! (GFC) : D - ha ha ha ha
For people very new to the idea I have to explain from the start - :
Quark is a fully distributed currency with an EQ reward this is like a small inflation <0.4%
the benefits of this design are many - the price starts as a "base price" of near zero (its original value) and is then determined by the free market.
huge benefits over "traditional" or original crypto economic models are realized with this system making it the leader in Crypto key benifits are :
Low to Zero fee structure (because the EQ reward replenishes the system)
No price or mining manipulation due to monopoly
No corporate Bank or "Government" takeover is possible because of both the full distribution and the EQ reward.
All these things make Quark the key stable base leader in crypto the fact that others don't see this (right now) is only to the benefit of the readers here today, if you believe in decentralized digital "e-cash" then Quark is essentially the best measure of the market. however this design did present one perceived problem, and that was that the "inflation rate" the EQ reward was not enough incentive to secure the network from our obvious enemies (namely Banks and Bank agents) although this is probably and overblown perceived threat there is also confidence issues that related to this subject. Personally my opinion (having a lot of experience in the field) was that this issue would in essence resolve itself so i didn't see it as the problem that our friends were hyping it as; because after all the aim of any psychological attack is to control the narrative. But then i was alway taught to use the energy that an enemy has and find their objective to help your cause and to this degree i think we have a solution . The merge mine option for me is important not only to decentralize and raise our hash rate; but in keeping with the elegant theme of using our enemy it also has key important sociological impact effects; which i will explain along the way. ( i will probably need the Blog to do this) So i'd say this is an exciting prospect as the parameters of the merge mine are quite enticing. check them out : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=657528.0
no pre mine.
open and transparent.
5 min block times.
20 units halving in 4 years <
( this means everyone effectively has 4 years to mine this as primary reward then it halves to 10 ) this seems very fair to me as long as we can get it out publicly. this to my calc gives us - 525600 minutes in a year - divided by 5 (5 min block times) = 105,120 so 105,120 blocks in one year. 105120 x 20 (block reward) = 2, 102, 400 per year - 2102400 x 4 = 8, 409600 so after 4 years there will be just 8.5 million of these units. and that is half of the supply that there will be. upon looking at the code it is a clone of Quark so it falls down to a reward of 1 (maybe) after 20 years? with the grand total of 16million having been distributed after that very long time. Some more Points on Merge mining
I'm not sure it can be done as people are suggesting the block times need to be matched we need professional advice here i.e Max or Shake
To get your head around this if you mine this you WILL be mining Quark - if you invest in a GPU (or two) and lets say you mined a block of this you would receive :
20 units of this crypto + One Quark.
BUT they are completely separate Crypto with their own free market exchange rate between both Quark and the world market, so this is NOT an extension of the Quark base.
if this moves ahead we'd need a total re brand - i touched on this the Dev seems vacantly happy !
i will discuss some options for Max also - which we touched on but didn't iron out.
This was brought up in email i'd like to get feedback from the community about how they feel about this Crypto - the parameters look good and it seems exceptional as it seems like a fair start and has benign non hostile interest on the forum - AS julie suggested in email we should re-brand it if the Dev is palatable to that he seems keen from the limited contact i've had with him. for a merge mine to work I'd like to involve as much as the general public with the idea of profiting from mining a crypto, i think this can be achieved now. add comments - i will disregard votes as Reddit is the master of spam voting - as always if you have any strong opinions voice them i'd LOVE feedback ! : D
I decided to look into Bitcoins and Bitcoin Mining a few days ago and tonight I decided to install BitMinter and get my feet a little wet. So far I'm seeing a hash rate of between 1.29 Mhps and 1.65 Mhps. I'm aware this is very low, but how low? Am I looking at roughly 1 Bitcoin per day at this rate? If I wanted to turn a profit on Bitcoin Mining over my investment within, say, one to three months, what sort of upfront investment in hardware would I be looking at? And what hardware would you guys recommend? Found this calc: http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator
How do you keep the bitcoin wallet on a flash drive when the program is currently over 20 GB in size? Do you need a giant flash drive or...what? And is keeping your wallet out of reach of the internet a sure fire way to keep it from getting hacked, or is there another way to get the info? Secondly, a question about LiteCoin- originally posted to bitcointalk: I recently took an interest in mining but the standard Bitcoin profit calculators told me the sad news: that my PC would produce such a pitiful number of coins (like $20 worth a year, even with some simple gear) that it wasn't worth it (especially when considering electricity costs). But I happened upon a litecoin calculator and put in the same values (20 GHs/s, current difficulty, my computer's wattage, power costs, etc.) and the calc told me I could mine around $500k worth of LiteCoin (after exchanging to BTC then to USD at the current rates). I'm assuming something's very off. Here's the calculator: http://www.coinwarz.com/calculators/litecoin-mining-calculator I'd be getting two Butterfly Labs 10 GH/s USB blocks ($50 each) and run my AMD Radeon 7700 GPU for a little more. I have a 250 watt PC and power's about 0.12 a kW. What's broken here, or can I really get rich on this alt currency?
So over the last week or so I've become more and more interested in starting up mining again (last done this years and years ago, bitcoin mining ofc) but I have to be honest I have forgotten pretty much everything. The technology has also moved on from back then when and I'm currently looking at getting a little rig together for about £800. 2x Sapphire Radeon HD 7950 3GB I've been looking at https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/wiki/Mining-hardware-comparison to see what the average kH/s is and then calculating the gross profit on http://www.litecoinpool.org/calc?hashrate=1100&difficulty=153.16808633 Now I know that the difficulty won't stay at this rate for very long but from what I can see you can make the money back within a month? Surely I must be missing something here.
Hi /BitcoinMining With LTC mining being reported as less profitable than BTC mining, I changed an older rig (Win 7 x64, cgminer 3.0.1, Catalyst 12.8, 2GB version 6950) over to BTC to see what the differences were. I signed up with the BTC Guild and chose PPLNS because this reward scheme worked well in LTC-land, and in a few minutes the pool was reporting an accurate hashrate for the worker. cgminer is running with only the pool and worker parameters because I haven't read tuning methodologies for BTC mining. The GPU is currently reporting 354 Mh/s, 99.1% shares accepted, but only a work utility of 4.9/m. BTC Guild reports 379.04 Mh/s and 99.07% shares accepted. The allchains calculator estimates 0.016 BTC/day for 354 Mh/s but the rewards from BTC Guild are only averaging 0.011 BTC/day. Given that BTC Guild is reporting a higher hashrate, this lower reward is unexpected. My initial questions are: (1) Is there a recommended tuning guide for BTC mining? This GPU was performing really well with LTC mining and I'd like to make it more efficient for BTC. (2) What would be causing, or contributing to, the significantly lower reward from BTC Guild? Cheers.
[modpost] Possible wiki page, something I call "All about miners," covering things from basic terminology to miner config files and overclocking.
What is a miner? A miner is a computer set up to solve cryptographic hashes in the litecoin network. Once a clump of these hashes, or a block, is mined, litecoins pop out! It's like opening a box of chocolates, except you know what you're gonna get :) Miners also handle transaction confirmations, making sure no single coin is double-spent. Setting up your computer to be a miner What kind of computer do I need? Optimally, you'd have a good power supply and a couple decent Radeon/ATI/AMD graphics cards. Because of litecoin's hash algorithm, the gap between mining with graphics cards and processors is less than with most other cryptocurrencies, meaning that mining with some desktop processors may be worth it after electricity costs. Note that mining with laptops is not recommended because of the heat generated by mining, and mining with NVIDIA graphics cards may not be worth the cost. How do I know if litecoin mining will be profitable for me? First, check how fast you'll be mining with your hardware, how many litecoins you'll mine in a day, and how much litecoins are worth. Now, multiply the number of litecoins per day by their worth. Then, find out the power draw of your hardware, and calculate energy cost. Then finish by subtract energy cost from your daily earnings. If your number is positive, you're making that much money per day. If negative, you're losing money. Keep in mind that the worth of litecoins goes up/down, and you have to earn the cost of your hardware before you churn a profit. Mining difficulty also goes up/down, depending on how many people are mining how fast in relation to how many litecoins are supposed to be generated how fast. See the economics(coming soon) post for more info. Okay, I did all that. How do I start? All you have to do is download a program and change some settings (later in the guide), and you're ready to go. If you're comfortable with configurations and the command line, Reaper and cgminer are your best friends. Otherwise, GUIMiner-scrypt is right for you. If you want to mine on your processor, download the "batteries included" miner via this link and setup should be relatively self-explanatory. Do I mine alone? Due to the difficulty of mining, we recommend that you mine with a pool where multiple people mine together. Visit your pool's about or help page for proper miner settings, which we're about to get to in-depth! Under the hood Configuring your miner (aka the hard part) Before we get started, you should become familiar with these terms:
host: Your pools website
port: The internet port your computer uses to connect to your pool
worker: Anything that mines is a worker. Just a way for you and your pool to keep track of what's mining how.
user: In mining programs, the user is the name of your worker, which by default tends to be poolusername.1 or poolusername_1, _2, etc.
pass: Password for your worker, NOT your pool password. This can usually be anything.
None of those will have any affect on how fast you mine. The settings that we'll be focusing on are:
worksize: Exactly what it sounds like
thread-concurrency: Setting that involves computations happening simultaneously
vectors: Involves how memory is used
aggression/intensity: How aggressively your computer mines
threads_per_gpu: How many threads of data to process on a GPU, like threads of a CPU. Anything beyond 1 usually doesn't increase hashrate on modern cards.
device: First GPU is device 0, second is device 1, etc.
If you're using GUIMiner-scrypt, there are default settings for different cards (lower right dropdown). I'm mining on a 7870. Here is what it looks like for me. You can follow along with the rest of this guide to optimize your settings. GUIMiner-scrypt is just a GUI to cgminer and reaper anyways. If you are using a command-line miner, like reaper and cgminer, I recommend you download and isntall Notepad++ or SublimeText if on Linux. Reaper is currently considered to be the best tool for mining. After you unzip your downloaded file, in the folder you'll find reaper.conf. It should look something like this:
As you see, my thread concurrency is slightly different from the default of GUIMiner-scrypt. I found that this concurrency gives me the best hashrate! NOTE: I do not use cgminer to mine litecoin. If you plan on using cgminer, which offers more hardware-controlling settings, in the cgminer folder you will want to create a text file. Then, open that text file w/ Notepad++ or SublimeText, then Save As > cgminer.con > file type > all. This will save the file with the proper name and as the proper type. Note that cgminer does not support high concurrencies. For me, cgminer.conf would look something like:
You saw some settings similar to what we saw in Reaper's litecoin.conf. The other settings have to do with my card's clocks, voltage, and fan. This is covered in the overclocking section right below! Overclocking (aka the risky part) Okay, first off I'm not responsible if you cause damage to your parts. Please research safe overclock settings for your card. Second, don't be afraid. Modern hardware has many safety features in place that help prevent mayhem like me...lol jk this isn't a car insurance add. For your better understanding, become familiar with these terms:
Voltage/vddc: Amount of electrical current supplied to your card
Power Limit: Determines at what temperature your card throttles itself
Core Clock: Speed of your memory's core, similar to CPU core clocks
Memory Clock: Speed of GPU's GRAM, similar to RAM speed
Fan speed (%): Determines the RPM of your fan once your card reaches certain temperatures.
No one setting controls how effectively you mine; what matters most when it comes to clocks is the ratio between your core/memory clocks. Generally, a ratio of 0.7 or below is best. You will need to experiment. If you're using cgminer, you can control card settings from the conf file. However, if you aren't, I recommend using MSI Afterburner as your overclocking tool. You will need to unlock some settings. Using my cgminer settings, MSI Afterburner looks like this. I have found these settings to be the most stable while bringing me a high hashrate. Other people's optimum settings You can check the sidebar for the hardware comparison chart, but it is rarely updated and has huge sways in results. It is a good starting place. The mods of this subreddit will be putting together an updated, more accurate list in the near future. END I hope all things go smoothly for you and that you've learned a lot! Please consider donating LTC to My wallet: LiD41gjLjT5JL2hfVz8X4SRm27T3wQqzjk The writer of the [Consolidated Litecoin Mining Guide] which helped get me started The writer of the [Absolute Beginner's Litecoin Mining Guide] which also helped me get started
I personally stick to buy and hold but was asked by a family-member if this offer was worth it: Hosted 2TH/s at $2k per year. Available to customer upon payment. Prepaid for the year, I am certain. Other options were, if i recall, something like 1MH/s for $15/month. I had initially told him to look into altcoin mining, if he just had to mine something. Then he came back with this "proposal" from some business he had connections with. (that he even had btc relevant connections surprised me but then again, the bitcoin subs are filled with ppl from every walk of life.) I simply don't know enough to make judgement calls on profit-calcs. However, what he showed me, seemed to indicate that he could make a profit even while difficulty was exponentially increasing at 100% per month. He was all excited about it, ready to sign a check. I managed to get him to hold off on doing anything until his lawyer was able to review the contract. Obviously his lawyer is no bitcoin guru either, so I am looking to anyone that could, with the limited info available, say: RUN AWAY or KEEP LISTENING. Or, if you can, tell me if this can actually produce a ROI or if it is another attempt to make easy money of the noobs. $2k is not going to make him homeless by any means but I just don't know if this is something I should encourage or not. thanks
I'm looking to raise some money to develop a advanced Bitcoin shopping cart system. I'm trying to raise some money so I've compiled a list of helpful links for those of you who use or plan on using Bitcoins. Please donate to my Bitcoin address if you find this list helpful and to help the development of my projects Bitcoin address 18e2MbUAbH7jNpYtY9Qt2WFUZpagCCEaVs
http://wtcr.ca/ -Number one because the ship almost instantly. Rates do tend to me a lot more but you know for sure you are getting what you ordered in a week and a half of less. No BS preordering and mess
http://cointerra.com/ -2th miner for 14k. Best deal, has the most reputable staff, and is more for the customers then themselves
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